Ep202 Cooperative Care In The Real World

[00:00:00] Chrissy Neumyer Smith: Episode 202 of the Creating Great Grooming Dogs podcast. This week we are talking about cooperative care in the real world. What do we actually need to work on? And um, this one's mostly for the trainers, but for everybody who needs to talk to them. We have some distinct differences in the dog grooming world and what we really want.

[00:00:21] As our goal. So that's what we'll get into this week.

[00:00:25] This is the Creating Great Grooming Dog Show. I'm Chrissy Nemeyer Smith. I'm a master groomer behavior specialist, a certified professional dog trainer, a certified behavior consultant for canines, a certified professional groomer, a fear free, certified professional, and educator at the whole pet grooming Academy.

[00:00:39] And the owner of Happy Critters in Nashua, New Hampshire. And this my friends and colleagues, is the show where we talk about teaching dogs to be good for grooming and other types of care.

[00:00:48] So this week we're gonna talk about what groomers are actually looking for as the ideal. So if we're teaching cooperative care, what are we actually looking for as our finished product, if you are a groomer, and that doesn't mean that every dog is gonna be able to achieve that finished product, I understand that.

[00:01:06] But if we know what it looks like, if we know what that actual ideal is, we're gonna be much better at finding it. I was recently on a podcast with, the, bitey the end of the dog with Michael shikashio, which was super fun. And if you wanna listen to that, the bitey end of the dog in that episode aired September of 2024.

[00:01:26] But one of the things that kept coming up is, well, what do we teach them or what do we teach them or what do we teach them? How do we teach it? And I know for dog trainers it's always, especially with positive reinforcement trainers, it's always like, what does it look like? What, what do we want it to look like in the end?

[00:01:41] How do we teach that thing? And I kept circling back to getting them used to being touched, getting them used to being calm, getting them used to being around stuff. I. I know that's a hard one , for trainers to handle, so I don't know why it took me so long to come up with this concept, but here we are.

[00:02:01] What we're looking for is dog grooming is a very, very elaborate stand stay. So if everything you're doing is about stand stay. So we don't want them enthusiastically pressing their nose into anything that's not a great stay and stay. , and from a dog grooming point of view, that could be dangerous depending on the tools that we're using.

[00:02:26] I don't want them to be enthusiastically putting their paws at me to get me to touch their nails. That's not a very good stand safe. So if we, instead of thinking about all of the things that a dog can do to show us. They're happy and they're exuberant and that they want to be part of this. What if instead, we're teaching them to show us that they don't resist.

[00:02:50] I know for a lot of trainers out there, they also went, but we want them to be enthusiastic, however. In grooming, we are using sharp tools. We actually don't want them enthusiastically doing anything. We don't want that tail wagging. We don't want lots of ears up and down, up and down. We don't want lots of panting.

[00:03:09] We don't want what we're looking for as a dog who is going to stand and stay for a dog who's going to just chill out and be in the zone and let us work on them. And I think if we break it down into a stand stay. For the trainers who are looking for the thing that they can teach, now we have to think about the stand stay with stuff that a dog perhaps isn't comfortable with or hasn't experienced yet.

[00:03:39] 'cause like I said, it's not just a stand stay, it's a very elaborate stand stay. It is a super elaborate stand stay. So let's talk about that in terms of the three Ds. Now, if you've never heard of the three Ds, the three Ds are a way to measure difficulty. So one, the first one is distance. Now usually in dog training we are thinking about distance in terms of how far away the dog can be and still respond to us.

[00:04:09] In dog, grooming distance. The challenge of distance is that we're up here. We are in their face. We are all over them. We are touching them in places that maybe their owners never have touched, and we're doing it over and over and over again. We are touching them everywhere. We have fingers in their ears we're in between their toes.

[00:04:30] We often have our finger in their lip, underneath their lip, and trying to pull hair out from under in their mouth. We are all over that dog. And that is a challenge. Think about the dogs who find it difficult seeing a person at like 30 feet away. Like that's, that's might be the point where as a trainer, we're working with that dog.

[00:04:52] Okay? So we see a person and they are 30 feet away, and can you still respond to me? Can you still manage your emotions? Can you still, effectively hold it together? Yet that owner. If you're a dog trainer and you're working with a dog who, who has trouble, difficulty even holding it together near a person, you need to let that owner know this dog is not well prepared for going to a grooming shop and having a stranger touch them all over.

[00:05:20] 'cause now the distance part. Is that we're up close, right? The animal is afraid of something or, or nervous about something or not well prepared for something. And we are up close, so close, and that is really challenging. So let's think about how we can work on that. And the way that we can work on that is by doing gradual little things toward the stand.

[00:05:48] Stay with a stranger, touching 'em all over. Not just can I be near people, not just can I get my nails done? Okay. I think, as nail trimming as an example, most of the time people are convinced that their dog has a nail trim issue, whereas I wanna know, how did you determine that? Because what I have observed is that a lot of these dogs have touching issues and we reach directly for the nails.

[00:06:17] If that dog is stiffening and recoiling as soon as I, a stranger reach for them, that's likely to be a nail trim problem, but not because it's a nail trimming problem, it's because I'm a stranger. Now, when we talk about, , distance, like I said, we're up close, up close, up close, up, close and personal.

[00:06:38] And personal. One of the things we can do is not be a stranger. So if you are a trainer working with a dog who has difficulty with strangers, one of the things that we can do is start helping that owner understand that their groomer can't be a stranger. That might mean going to the grooming shop and getting to know people and maybe meet and treats and hanging out, but until that groomer is no longer a stranger.

[00:07:05] That dog is likely to have some difficulty. It's one of the things that we can work on and when they are no longer worried about that person being a stranger, the difficulty level of stand stay, our big elaborate stand stay with touching all over is very different. So let's think about the difficulty level of being touched all over

[00:07:27] the distance is that we are up close. We are so close, and for dogs that love people, that could also be difficult. The dog who wants to just play might also find that very, very challenging. So distance is up close, not just with people. So now we have distance up close with other objects and sounds and vibration and things that could be scary.

[00:07:52] So if we think about the three Ds, that one's distance, our next one is duration. And I think if you've never been around grooming, you might think, well, but can't they make it shorter? But there are some things that just take a long time. We have some procedures that are just going to take a long time to be in the tub.

[00:08:14] For instance, the duration of being in the tub, we can try to make it shorter. But the proper bath, and again, we're talking about cooperative care and what we really need them to know how to do. I understand that not every dog is gonna be able to attain this, but let's talk about what the goal is. In a perfect world, we are thoroughly soaking them down.

[00:08:36] Wet, wet, wet, wet, all the way down to the skin, getting a dog wet, all the way down to the skin, and getting their skin really wet. Is helping prepare for the shampoo. It's a step that we could skip if we need to, if we need to shorten a duration. Okay. But in a perfect world, we're pre-wedding. We're getting like as much dirt off of them as we can physically can with just water flow and preparing their skin , for the shampoo.

[00:09:01] And then we're in there with the shampoo and shampooing a dog. Listen, I know if you are not a groomer, you probably think that's a quick step, but it really depends on the dog. It really depends on the type of coat they have, how big they are, and working it all through. In a perfect world, again, in a perfect world, but I want you to know what perfection looks like because so many of our dogs can achieve it.

[00:09:23] In a perfect world, that dog is going to be suds up and that shampoo is getting worked through for about five minutes. Often we have to add more shampoo because as the shampoo grabs hold of dirt, it starts feeling a little bit dry and you need to apply some more and just keep going until that dog has got

[00:09:42] no more dirt on them. Okay. This is time consuming and it's a lot more duration than a dog is usually used to. think about the average owner who has their dog, like sit, stay, stare at some treats on the floor. For like 30 seconds and they're like, wow, look how much self control he has. Like yeah, 30 seconds is nothing compared to what we need to do in this particular setting, in this particular level of challenge.

[00:10:09] Okay. So again, the ideal bath. The duration in a perfect world. After they're all suds up, we would have that stay on for five minutes and really let the soap do its work and keep reapplying if we need more.

[00:10:23] , groomers go through a lot more shampoo than owners do. Owners tend to put a glob in the middle of their hand and like work it down the middle of their back, and that is not what we do. We are all over that dog. Again, we have the distance, we're up close, and now we have this duration. And then we also have to rinse it all off.

[00:10:41] Rinse it all off. That's another duration. And in a perfect bath, we are applying some sort of conditioner. It will be different depending on a dog's coat type, but generally we wanna apply conditioner. This is a step that could be skipped for a pet that needs a shorter duration while they're learning how to be good and be comfortable with it.

[00:11:03] So we can skip , the step of applying conditioner. The conditioner is really important part of skincare. We do want to apply conditioner. So what we often do is if we have a dog that really is having some difficulty, is try to decide if they need the bath at all today. Okay? But let's imagine we put on that conditioner.

[00:11:26] Now we have to rinse out that conditioner, this is just a bath. This could be a beagle. Okay? It doesn't need to be the dog that's getting a show trim. And everybody seems to think, just do it really quick. But it takes a long time, and we're holding their focus.

[00:11:41] So distance up, close, duration, long time, and think about the challenges there. And in the next part, we're gonna talk about the third of the three Ds.

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[00:12:32] So we already talked about distance and duration. The third of our three Ds is distraction. So we're gonna go back to our ideal, which is a dog who can do an endurance stand, stay, a very elaborate stand stay, which is up close and personal. That's our distance. Somebody who might be a stranger or maybe just up close and personal with tools that are unfamiliar up close and personal

[00:12:56] and then our duration is that it's long process. Even if even this is just a little beagle, right? Little short hair, dog or a chihuahua. It's still a long process. This is a lot more than most of our dogs have been asked to do. So now we have. We have distance, we have duration, and now we have distractions.

[00:13:15] So many distractions. So imagine as a trainer, you are trying to teach this very elaborate stand stay, and you don't have all of the grooming equipment we do, but there's a significant amount of equipment and tools and stuff and things that we can be using for our distractions. Can that dog do a stand stay If someone's walking across the street?

[00:13:38] That's so much easier than the difficulty level of being in a grooming salon with other dogs nearby, other dogs, other people to be able to do this elaborate stand, stay, to do nothing. They're just like staring off into space, get the little nose going. Sniffing the stuff, just trying to like figure out, Hmm, okay, I'm watching the things happening.

[00:14:04] Sometimes they're looking out a window or looking at another pet in a crate nearby. Like, okay, that's what we're looking for, I don't want them to have difficulty with being around dogs, being around people being around loud noises. And for as much as we try to minimize the amount of noise, our tools make noise, our tools make noise.

[00:14:25] Clippers make noise, scissors make noise. Certainly the dryers and the vacuums. we try to minimize a bunch of that, but this is part of the distraction level. This is part of the difficulty level. So in a perfect world, if we are training a dog to do a thing, what we want is a rock solid stand stay.

[00:14:46] People can approach and touch and move the dog around. And the dog is just the posable action figure. Like, oh, somebody wanted to lift my leg. I will just relax into your hand and let you move my leg in whatever direction you need. , no matter what's going on, I'm not gonna start barking or jumping around or wagging my tail or doing any sort of barking myself.

[00:15:06] All of those things, it's a very elaborate stand stay. , now you might be saying, but. I mean, is it fair to ask a dog to stand that long? , I will address the fact that most of the time, if I don't need them to be standing, I will let a dog sit. However, there's a lot of stuff we can't get done. If a dog is sitting and some of them might surprise you, we need that dog to stand so that we can thoroughly rinse them, even just in the tub.

[00:15:39] Even just to scrub them down, just to get them soapy. I need them to be able to stand up, when we're drying them. There are times where I can have a dog sit, but once it comes time to try to dry under their belly or dry their back legs or dry near their tail, we cannot do those things while they're sitting.

[00:15:55] We need that dog to stand now. We can modify so much if we know that a dog is having difficulty. Some of our show dogs. Are taught to lie down for a lot of those things so that we can get most of their side done and then lay down on the other side. These are things that we could be teaching dogs that, that we groom regularly that, okay, lie down for as much of this as you can and stand only when you need to.

[00:16:23] But even with our geriatric dogs, our older dogs, there are some times where we just need them to be standing up so that we can do stuff. So I already mentioned drying, but brushing. You might be surprised how easy it is to miss a tangle if you're trying to brush a dog who's all curled up on their side or sitting.

[00:16:42] You might be surprised to realize that, it's really hard to get the ears, even if a dog is sitting, like if I have to trim those ears. That dog is sitting, it is really difficult to get a nice even ear that's gonna look nice and even when they stand up. I want them to stand up so I can take a look.

[00:17:01] But also with the dogs who are good at standing, I often ask them to sit so I can take a look because ears are tricky things. So I wanna see their ear in a couple of different positions, but it's really difficult to get a nice even ear.

[00:17:14] If they're sitting, so I like them to stand and if they're always standing, sometimes I'll have 'em sit, so I can just see if that ear twists a little bit, leave 'em a little extra long pieces. There are just a lot of nuances to dog grooming that I think owners don't realize, so they don't know to prepare for.

[00:17:31] And trainers, if you are trying to work on what thing, what one thing do the groomers actually want. Please, please, please. Teach that dog a good stand. Stay with a variety of distractions and touching and endurance and tools, and that will affect how well they can handle grooming. The artwork for this episode, I have my guy, , one of my guys up on a grooming table on our porch. We were outside grooming. You can see the grooming loop is on him, but it is loose. , by the way, grooming loop, it is not a grooming noose, and that's part of why people freak out that we use them.

[00:18:12] This is a way for them to understand, oh, I'm tied, I'm on a leash, so maybe I shouldn't jump around and try to jump off the table. Many, many dogs calm down a lot if we put the grooming loop on because they realize, oh, I understand what leashes are. When we're walking a dog down the street, we don't call it their traffic noose, we just call it a leash.

[00:18:34] So when we're using a grooming loop on a grooming table, just a grooming loop, just a leash. Some dogs actually are a little bit cuckoo with it on because they're like, oh, cool, I can lean into this that's not cool. We don't want that. So. A groomer may choose to not use one. I usually choose to use one because most of these pets understand, oh, I'm hooked up.

[00:18:56] Okay, that's familiar. And it's not scary. So my dog is on the grooming table outdoors. Outdoors enjoying the bright sunshine 'cause it's a great place to deshed. And he is not pulling on that leash and he's standing. And in that picture you can also see I'm drying him. That's the dryer. , he is not having any issues with it.

[00:19:18] So when we think about the one thing, the one thing if you're a trainer and you're like, I just need to know what one thing to teach him. Think about everything circling back to a stand stay. It is at the core of what we need for dog grooming is a stands stay that's at the core. So a stands stay. With a much, much, much closer intimate touching everywhere.

[00:19:45] , lots and lots of touching. So distance, we're up close, duration, we take a long time. We hold their focus for a very long time and difficulty level with lots of things going on. And actually in that picture of that grooming session, my dog was watching everything going on in the neighborhood. So there is a difficulty level, but he is used to this.

[00:20:07] Now, like I said, we know as dog groomers that we can adjust and we can change based on what a pet needs. We can definitely make some changes. We can definitely help them by, reducing some of , the distance stuff. And actually, yeah, how about I talk about that for a second. How do we reduce distance?

[00:20:27] , if we know a dog is particularly nervous about anything near their head. We can choose to not wet down, scrub down, re-wet, rinse off, add conditioner, add dryers, we can hair that down and do less with their head and work on teaching them about touching heads and not necessarily have to do all of it.

[00:20:49] So that's one of the ways that we can reduce some of the difficulty levels. But think back to what does it look like? What does it look like for a dog to be groomed? It is not enthusiastic. Jumping around. It's not happy tails. It's not giving paw. It's not holding chin rests or nose targets. It's an elaborate stand stay, and that will help guide us all, whether you're an owner or a trainer, that will help guide us all into how we can effectively teach this dog to be good.

[00:21:23] And this does apply to the vet visits. Also, think about what the veterinarian is trying to do. If we can teach a dog to stand, then if they want to do range of motion, they can easily test range of motion. , dog groomers, we go through their range of motion. I mean, that's just part of the process. We are up underneath , their armpits.

[00:21:43] We're all over the place. So a dog who learns how to be good for grooming can often translate that directly to. A veterinarian who is just as gentle. So lots of stuff to think about. If you're used to thinking in terms of, counterconditioning and desensitization, we still use those. But what if we work on this elaborate stand, stay.

[00:22:06] The confident dog who is like, yep, I'm in a stand stay. I'm up on a table. I've got a grooming loop on me and someone's touching me all over with stuff and things, and we've been doing it for an hour and there's lots of stuff happening all around me. Frankly, it's amazing how many dogs are really, really good for it.

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[00:22:45] That's the only reason why I am on YouTube is that a bunch of people had requested it. So if you know someone who says, I just can't handle podcasts, I can't do audio, only tell them we're on YouTube search, creating great grooming dogs. Find our channel and we're there also.